Bucs made right move not trading up for Calvin Johnson

[Matt McGuire]

Walter, how do you continue to ignore the defense? How do you continue to ignore the lack of a pass rush?

If the Bucs wanted Calvin, they woulda had to give up both 2nd rounders, which means they still have huge holes at LG (Sears) and S (Piscitelli) and DE (Adams).

Sure, Calvin Johnson is a sexy draft pick. Time to give it up man, the bucs made the right move. Sometimes, it is better to fill your depth chart with 3 very talented young players than one superstar. And in a few years I think Gaines Adams will be a superstar.

[Walter]

I disagree. Calvin Johnson could emerge as the best player in that draft class. What if he becomes a great wide out like Marvin Harrison or Terrell Owens (minus the distractions?) You can't pass up on talent like that if you have a chance to get it. Plus, Johnson would sell jerseys and tickets more effectively than anyone else. Tampa Bay's passing attack is anemic. They needed Johnson.

[Matt McGuire]

Um, Tampa doesn't need to sell tickets Watler. Their season ticket waiting list is over 100k which rivals Green Bay.

You can pass up on that kind of talent at a steep price.

Um, DIDN'T YOU SAY THE TEXANS NEEDED REGGIE BUSH FOR THOSE SAME REASONS?

[Matt McGuire]

Walter,

Please make a comment on my statements regarding the needs the Bucs would still have if they traded for Calvin Johnson. Then use logic and tell me how trading for Johnson still makes sense with all of those needs still on the depth chart and that the Bucs will still be struggling to bring in a lot of young talent.

[Matt McGuire]

I disagree. Calvin Johnson could emerge as the best player in that draft class. What if he becomes a great wide out like Marvin Harrison or Terrell Owens (minus the distractions?) You can't pass up on talent like that if you have a chance to get it. Plus, Johnson would sell jerseys and tickets more effectively than anyone else. Tampa Bay's passing attack is anemic. They needed Johnson.

I bet this was Mike Ditka's thought process regarding trading his entire draft for Ricky Williams.

By effective trading for Calvin Johnson, while the passing game will be better:
1. Tampa Bay's pass rush is anemic (Gaines Adams).
2. Tampa Bay's run blocking is anemic at LG (Aaron Sears).
3. Tampa Bay's pass coverage/playmaking is anemic at the SS position (Sabby Piscitelli).

Please respond to everything I just mentioned and explain how in your opinion Calvin Johnson helps the pass rush, the run blocking, and the pass coverage.

[Matt McGuire]

Also Walter, the icing on this cake is that I think that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever read regarding the draft, you never draft a player to sell jerseys. You draft players to win football games and super bowls.

[Walter]

Also Walter, the icing on this cake is that I think that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever read regarding the draft, you never draft a player to sell jerseys. You draft players to win football games and super bowls.

If only that were true.

No... football is a business. Money comes first. Winning comes second. Just ask the Eagles.

I wish you were right. I wish football were more about winning than selling tickets and jerseys, but you're flat out wrong.

[Walter]

Um, Tampa doesn't need to sell tickets Watler. Their season ticket waiting list is over 100k which rivals Green Bay.

You can pass up on that kind of talent at a steep price.

Um, DIDN'T YOU SAY THE TEXANS NEEDED REGGIE BUSH FOR THOSE SAME REASONS?

LOL yeah, Bush (or Young) would look nice on that team right now

[Walter]

As for the needs, the Bucs have a need at receiver! A pretty big one! And not just at wide out; they need a play-maker. A guy Michael Clayton was supposed to become. Tampa Bay will once again finish in the bottom 10 in scoring and in the cellar of the NFL, because they can't put points on the board.

[Matt McGuire]

LOL yeah, Bush (or Young) would look nice on that team right now

Yeah. VY and his 50% completion rate. :confused:

Bush and his inability to run through the tackles makes for a horrible fit in the ZBS.

[Matt McGuire]

As for the needs, the Bucs have a need at receiver! A pretty big one! And not just at wide out; they need a play-maker. A guy Michael Clayton was supposed to become. Tampa Bay will once again finish in the bottom 10 in scoring and in the cellar of the NFL, because they can't put points on the board.

As for needs, the Bucs have a need at defensive end! A pretty big one! And not just at defenisve line; they need a play-maker. Simeon Rice got injured and he's old. Tampa Bay will once again finish in the bottom 10 in sakcs and in the cellar of the NFL, because they can't generate a pass rush.

[Matt McGuire]

If only that were true.

No... football is a business. Money comes first. Winning comes second. Just ask the Eagles.

I wish you were right. I wish football were more about winning than selling tickets and jerseys, but you're flat out wrong.

? I don't understand why you mention the eagles. I don't think Kevin Kolb would have sold nearly as many jerseys as a Dwayne Jarrett.

Also, I don't think the Eagles are worried about a problem selling tickets. Neitehr are the Bucs, or any team really in the NFL for tha tmatter. Teams are more concerned with advertisements and corporate sponsors which generate much more money for a franchise than ticket sales.

Also, If I was wrong, then the Texans would have taken VY #1 overall to sell tickets. They want to win, and if you win you will sell tickets no matter who you put on the field.

[Matt McGuire]

Another example, I don't think Joe Thomas is gonna exactly sell a lot of tickets. If they wanted to sell tickets than Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn woulda been the pick at 3.

[Matt McGuire]

Also Walter, you failed to respond to my post asking you to make a response considering the other needs Tampa would have missed out on had they traded for Calvin Johnson.

Please make a post backing up your ideas on that situation and tehn say trading for Calvin Johnson is the smart move.

[Walter]

Yeah. VY and his 50% completion rate. :confused:

Bush and his inability to run through the tackles makes for a horrible fit in the ZBS.

It's amazing how you continue to underrate Vince Young. I can only name 5 or 6 quarterbacks I'd rather have.

LOL I think someone as dynamic as Bush would be OK in any scheme, I wouldn't worry too much about that. That's like saying "Kobe Bryant wouldn't be a good fit in the Phoenix Suns' run-and-gun offense."

[Walter]

As for needs, the Bucs have a need at defensive end! A pretty big one! And not just at defenisve line; they need a play-maker. Simeon Rice got injured and he's old. Tampa Bay will once again finish in the bottom 10 in sakcs and in the cellar of the NFL, because they can't generate a pass rush.

Point taken, but they have other good defenders. The Bucs have nothing else on offense, unless you want to consider an aging Joey Galloway.

[Walter]

? I don't understand why you mention the eagles. I don't think Kevin Kolb would have sold nearly as many jerseys as a Dwayne Jarrett.

Also, I don't think the Eagles are worried about a problem selling tickets. Neitehr are the Bucs, or any team really in the NFL for tha tmatter. Teams are more concerned with advertisements and corporate sponsors which generate much more money for a franchise than ticket sales.

Also, If I was wrong, then the Texans would have taken VY #1 overall to sell tickets. They want to win, and if you win you will sell tickets no matter who you put on the field.

Are you kidding me? When Kolb starts, he'll sell 50x the amount of jerseys Jarrett will sell. Quarterbacks are cash cows.

The Eagles have time and again proven that they value profit over winning. While they're always in contention, they have always shown that they're not willing to do the necessary things to take the next step.

The Texans are idiots. Plain and simple.

[Walter]

Another example, I don't think Joe Thomas is gonna exactly sell a lot of tickets. If they wanted to sell tickets than Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn woulda been the pick at 3.

Well, like you said, producing winners will sell tickets. The Browns thought Thomas would make them better.

You make it sound like I said teams don't care about winning. I never said that. They definitely do care about winning.

This is what I'm saying, and I'll use Caps lock to emphasize:

TEAMS CARE ABOUT WINNING, BUT MAKING MONEY HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL, COME FIRST.

[Matt McGuire]

Point taken, but they have other good defenders. The Bucs have nothing else on offense, unless you want to consider an aging Joey Galloway.

? What other defenders do they have Walter?

Derrick Brooks is done. He is very slow now and he can't cover.

Ronde Barber imo is one of the more overrated corners in the NFL.

The only young, talented players on the Bucs defense that aren't rookies are Barrett Ruud, Kevin Carter, and Cato June. The addition to Gaines Adams on this defense along with Sabby Piscitelli and Aaron Sears on the OL is much more than Calvin Johnson could ever do.

[Matt McGuire]

Point taken, but they have other good defenders. The Bucs have nothing else on offense, unless you want to consider an aging Joey Galloway.

Maurice Stovall
Davin Joseph
Jeremy Trueblood
Alex Smith
Cadillac Williams
Jeff Garcia
Luke Petitgout.

They all say hi, Walter.

[Matt McGuire]

The Texans are idiots. Plain and simple.

When someone that predicts 11 of the first 15 NFL Draft picks and predicts Brady Quinn falls out of the first 16 picks, then you'd better listen to that person.

Drafting Mario Williams was pure genius on Houston's part.

You're not going to outscore the Colts. You're gonna have to defend them.

It is rare to have a dominating Right Defensive End in football that can play both the run and the pass.

Quarterbacks are a dime a dozen. Same for runningbacks.

Mario Williams is a freak athlete and he had much higher upside than anyone in the draft. Even VY.

[Matt McGuire]

Well, like you said, producing winners will sell tickets. The Browns thought Thomas would make them better.

You make it sound like I said teams don't care about winning. I never said that. They definitely do care about winning.

This is what I'm saying, and I'll use Caps lock to emphasize:

TEAMS CARE ABOUT WINNING, BUT MAKING MONEY HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL, COME FIRST.

How is the Joe Thomas pick any different than the Mario Williams pick then Walter? Please elaborate.

...producing winners will sell tickets. "The Texans thought Williams would make them better."

?????????????????????????????/

[Walter]

? What other defenders do they have Walter?



OK, I can buy that.

Just think CJ will be a better pro than Gaines Adams, but that statement is indefensible.

[Walter]

Maurice Stovall
Davin Joseph
Jeremy Trueblood
Alex Smith
Cadillac Williams
Jeff Garcia
Luke Petitgout.

They all say hi, Walter.

I'm not talking about linemen. Talking about skill-position players.

Alex Smith - hasn't done anything
Cadillac Williams - great as a rookie, hadn't done anything since
Jeff Garca is old

[Walter]

How is the Joe Thomas pick any different than the Mario Williams pick then Walter? Please elaborate.

...producing winners will sell tickets. "The Texans thought Williams would make them better."

?????????????????????????????/

Might as well copy-paste

TEAMS CARE ABOUT WINNING, BUT MAKING MONEY HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL, COME FIRST.

[Matt McGuire]

You still don't explain how the Joe Thomas and Mario Williams picks are different though.

[Matt McGuire]

I'm not talking about linemen. Talking about skill-position players.

Alex Smith - hasn't done anything
Cadillac Williams - great as a rookie, hadn't done anything since
Jeff Garca is old

Smith and Williams haven't done anything because of two things imo:

1) Jon Gruden has ruined their careers, just like Michael Clayton's and Chris Simms'.

2) The OL has been crap, and drafting Aaron Sears fills a huge need on the line.

My friend that watched the SEA/TB game said that the OL looked great in run blocking, and he blames Gruden for being too "pass happy."

Said Williams should have gotten 100 yards before the injury forced him out of the game.

[Walter]

How has Gruden ruined their careers?

[Matt McGuire]

How has Gruden ruined their careers?

Gruden doesn't have faith in younger players. He never has. He didn't Oakland and he didn't when he first came to Tampa.

He never had confidence in Simms for no reason.
He ran Cadillac too much his rookie season which lead to his injury. Didn't run Pittman enough that year.
Didn't run Caddy enough imo vs. Seattle, which lead to the loss. Granted, Caddy got injured, but it is the principal of the matter.

Gruden hasn't called enough plays for Michael Clayton since his rookie year. He then benches Maurice Stovall vs. Seattle for no ****ing reason.

It is safe to say the guy is crazy.

Nearly every rookie has gotten worse since they have been here under Gruden on the offensive side of the ball outside of Davin Joseph and Jeremy Trueblood.

[Walter]

LOL can't argue with that. I can't believe Ike Hilliard is your No. 2 receiver.

Maybe that's why Gaines Adams didn't play that much?

[Matt McGuire]

LOL can't argue with that. I can't believe Ike Hilliard is your No. 2 receiver.

Maybe that's why Gaines Adams didn't play that much?

Now you're catching on. :)

[giantsfanmike]

Tampa's offense is pretty bad, maybe this year with more stability and talent at QB that may change....

I personally would have made the trade or at least attempted it, but then again I ain't Bucs GM.

[Matt McGuire]

Lets see how the Bucs play against a weak NO defense. I expect Tampa to step up and have a good, not great game offensively.

[Mark]

Lets see how the Bucs play against a weak NO defense. I expect Tampa to step up and have a good, not great game offensively.
I disagree. I think this could be a blow out win for the Saints. Saints will be very hungry for this win. They cannot afford to go 0-2, especially to weaker division rivals.

[Matt McGuire]

I disagree. I think this could be a blow out win for the Saints. Saints will be very hungry for this win. They cannot afford to go 0-2, especially to weaker division rivals.

But the Bucs can afford to go 0-2?

And after last week's performance, I am not so sure NO is the best team in the South. Carolina was quite impressive. Also, the NFC South is a gauntlet outside of Atlanta.

[Mark]

You're right, no team can afford to go 0-2. However, if the Saints want to show that they are the top class of the NFC South, as projected, then they have to win games vs. weaker division rivals.

I'm a Panther fan, and I wouldn't put much stock into that victory until Delhomme can prove that he can play like he did on a consistent level.

[Matt McGuire]

You're right, no team can afford to go 0-2. However, if the Saints want to show that they are the top class of the NFC South, as projected, then they have to win games vs. weaker division rivals.

I'm a Panther fan, and I wouldn't put much stock into that victory until Delhomme can prove that he can play like he did on a consistent level.

Good call on the Saints being weaker Mark. You are really showing your class when it comes to football knowledge. Saints defense got embarrassed by the Colts, yet everyone thinks Jason David will somehow shut down Joey Galloway.

I didn't put much stock into that victory either. But in Week 1 the Panthers were clearly the best team in the South.

[Mark]

Week 2 are the Panthers still the best in the south? I predict games for fun Matt. I don't sit in my room and break down every single stat about every single team. Get it over with, and check yourself into a therapist. You seem to spend way too much time trying to be an "internet bully". Maybe because you got smacked around too much in high school. Or maybe nobody gives a damn about your existence.

[Adam Mac]

Calvin is off to a hell of a start this year

[Walter]

I can't believe the Bucs blew the Saints away like that. What the hell is wrong with them?

[Matt McGuire]

I can't believe the Bucs blew the Saints away like that. What the hell is wrong with them?

I don't think anything is wrong with them Walter as much as they just played a lot better than their talent level last season.

The Bucs should also get a lot of respect with this win. Their OL is clearly the best in the NFC South no question and their defense isn't on their 2003 Super Bowl level but they are still very good.

[Matt McGuire]

Calvin is off to a hell of a start this year

Can't argue that...and it is hard to say anyone should be surprised. We all knew he was a man among boys in college, and mentally he was as solid as they come in terms of a prospect.