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  • #46
    Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
    Big Ben is clearly the best QB in the league < 30, and it's not even close.
    No. The best QB under 30 is Drew Brees. He had virtually no running game for most of the season and still managed an 89.4 passer rating, with 4,423 yards passing, 28 TD's and 18 INT's.

    Big Ben on the other hand, had the leagues leading rusher for most of the season. Yes, he threw for four more TD's than Brees and 7 less picks, but also 1,200ish less yards. 32 TD's 11 INT's 3,154 yards 104.1 passer rating. Ben didn't have the pressure of carrying the entire offense on his shoulders, no wait, the entire team! The Saint's D was, at best, sort of ok. While the Steelers had the #1 D in the entire league. The Steeler's D could even win some games by itself, while the Saints lost games because of it's D.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Eagles4Life View Post
      No. The best QB under 30 is Drew Brees. He had virtually no running game for most of the season and still managed an 89.4 passer rating, with 4,423 yards passing, 28 TD's and 18 INT's.

      Big Ben on the other hand, had the leagues leading rusher for most of the season. Yes, he threw for four more TD's than Brees and 7 less picks, but also 1,200ish less yards. 32 TD's 11 INT's 3,154 yards 104.1 passer rating. Ben didn't have the pressure of carrying the entire offense on his shoulders, no wait, the entire team! The Saint's D was, at best, sort of ok. While the Steelers had the #1 D in the entire league. The Steeler's D could even win some games by itself, while the Saints lost games because of it's D.
      Drew Brees? Are you sh###ing me??

      You just destroyed whatever credibility you might otherwise have.

      Drew Brees, the superstar QB who was so dominant in San Diego, that his team (a) earned the #1 draft pick overall and (2) used the pick to select his replacement??

      You're comparing Brees - who had all of (maybe) 2 good years in a 7 year career - with Big Ben??

      A guy who, in his rookie year, went 15-1, losing only to SB champ Patriots on the road, in the AFCCG?

      A guy who, in his 2nd year in the NFL, led his team to the Lombardi Trophy for the first time in 26 years -- becoming the 1st team to win every game on the road in the playoffs?? (Congrats, Giants on being the 2nd)

      A guy who, in his 4th season, bounced back from a motorcycle accident and two (2) concussions the prior year, inherited a 1st time NFL head coach and 1st time offensive coordinator, and still set the franchise record for passing TD's??

      Once again, like all the other FFL geeks who has mistaken glorified stats for actual analysis - you completely miss the boat.

      You say that Brees threw for 1,200 more yards than Ben, but then point out that Ben had the #1 rusher in the league.

      Gee, I wonder why Ben needed to throw less??

      If you're going to quote stats, how about quoting stats that actually matter?

      Brees had a 1.6 to 1 TD to INT ratio. Big Ben had nearly 3 to 1. That's not slightly better, that's light years better.

      WOW. It's not even close.

      Big Ben in a landslide.

      I'm still looking for signs of intelligent life in this debate.
      sigpic

      ------------------------------------------------
      Ray Lewis has suffered enough, Commissioner Paul Tagliabue of the National Football League said in a conference call yesterday in explaining why he did not suspend the All-Pro linebacker who pleaded guilty to obstructing justice in a murder case.

      ''It's the courts who have the primary responsibility in this case,'' Tagliabue said. ''We're not a substitute for the courts.''

      ''The offense was a misdemeanor; he had no problems before that and hadn't violated league policies,'' Tagliabue said of Lewis's guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstructing justice in a deal with Atlanta prosecutors, who dropped murder charges against the Ravens star.

      - NYTimes, July 20, 2000

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
        Drew Brees? Are you sh###ing me??

        You just destroyed whatever credibility you might otherwise have.

        Drew Brees, the superstar QB who was so dominant in San Diego, that his team (a) earned the #1 draft pick overall and (2) used the pick to select his replacement??

        You're comparing Brees - who had all of (maybe) 2 good years in a 7 year career - with Big Ben??

        A guy who, in his rookie year, went 15-1, losing only to SB champ Patriots on the road, in the AFCCG?

        A guy who, in his 2nd year in the NFL, led his team to the Lombardi Trophy for the first time in 26 years -- becoming the 1st team to win every game on the road in the playoffs?? (Congrats, Giants on being the 2nd)

        A guy who, in his 4th season, bounced back from a motorcycle accident and two (2) concussions the prior year, inherited a 1st time NFL head coach and 1st time offensive coordinator, and still set the franchise record for passing TD's??

        Once again, like all the other FFL geeks who has mistaken glorified stats for actual analysis - you completely miss the boat.

        You say that Brees threw for 1,200 more yards than Ben, but then point out that Ben had the #1 rusher in the league.

        Gee, I wonder why Ben needed to throw less??

        If you're going to quote stats, how about quoting stats that actually matter?

        Brees had a 1.6 to 1 TD to INT ratio. Big Ben had nearly 3 to 1. That's not slightly better, that's light years better.

        WOW. It's not even close.

        Big Ben in a landslide.

        I'm still looking for signs of intelligent life in this debate.
        I'd sign this.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
          I don't hate Palmer, in any way, shape or form.

          Take a look at my sig: I am well documented as the biggest USC homer on this board. And, unlike some other schools, when you are a Trojan, you are a Trojan for life.

          I graduated from SC the year before he arrived, and I've seen the highs and lows of his CFB career -- believe me, I love what he did for us.

          Which makes my critique of him all the more objective: I absolutely love him on a personal (character) level, and on a Trojan Family level.

          As of this point in his NFL career, he has proven not to be able to get it done.

          And you must be on crack if you think Palmer has had fewer weapons over his career than Ben.

          Chad Johnson + TJ Houseyourdaddy + Chris Henry -- he has had a better receiving corps (overall) than Ben has almost every year without exception (hence the glorified passing stats).

          To a fantasy league homer, stats alone justify the pick.

          But to be called a truly "elite" QB at this level, you have to achieve more.
          To me:

          Cincinnati Defense - Worst in the NFL, at least last season

          Running game - Non Existant

          Third receiver - Non existant, Chris Henry is good, but wasn't even there half the time last year.

          Ben has Holmes, Ward, Miller, Parker and a great defense. Palmer had Chad Johnson and TJ. Granted Cincinnati has by far the better O-Line when you have more weapons its easier to make plays.

          CJ and TJ are probably the best duo in the game, but when you become one dimensional as the Bengals were its a lot easier for teams to beat them.

          That said I think I the Bengals should have a better group of receivers this year (WR/TE) and Kenny Irons coming back should help the running game. The defense will be as usual non existant.

          I think if you put almost any QB in the Bengals team from last year you struggle.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
            Big Ben is clearly the best QB in the league < 30, and it's not even close.
            You're a little high on your Trojan horse huh?

            Vince Young made the playoffs with Roydell Williams, Brandon Jones, Justin Gage, Patrick Turner, a 7 year old kid, and Elmo. Big Ben had Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes.

            You have no clue what you are talking about do you? Yes I stole it off of ESPN (sarcasm) like I steal everything off of ESPN (sarcasm) because idk what the hell I'm talking about (sarcasm). You're stupid.

            What's bad about being a game manager? And 3,100 yards isn't all that much in days of 4,000 yard per year passer.

            And Ben won the Super Bowl because he was a GAME MANAGER! Their defense was beast and they had a 1-2 combo of WP and the Bus. The receivers told him to throw it their way. Hell, Randle El threw a TD pass. I say he's a top 3 QB.

            And cut out all of that stuff about Palmer and Romo. The past two D's Romo played against? Seahawks and Giants. Palmer would make it to the Playoffs if he had a DEFENSE. Good job Troj, way to dish it out.

            Comment


            • #51
              Ben didn't win the Super Bowl. The refs did!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
                Drew Brees? Are you sh###ing me??

                You just destroyed whatever credibility you might otherwise have.

                So are all the insults here just to make you feel like you're winning the argument?

                Drew Brees, the superstar QB who was so dominant in San Diego, that his team (a) earned the #1 draft pick overall and (2) used the pick to select his replacement??

                I'm not talking about his time in San Diego

                You're comparing Brees - who had all of (maybe) 2 good years in a 7 year career - with Big Ben??

                Where's the arguement?

                A guy who, in his rookie year, went 15-1, losing only to SB champ Patriots on the road, in the AFCCG?

                Yeah, cuz he totally carried the entire team on his shoulders that season. He totally didn't have an incredible running game to lean on, or o-line, or defense.

                A guy who, in his 2nd year in the NFL, led his team to the Lombardi Trophy for the first time in 26 years -- becoming the 1st team to win every game on the road in the playoffs?? (Congrats, Giants on being the 2nd)

                We're talking about being the best QB, not who had the best team.

                A guy who, in his 4th season, bounced back from a motorcycle accident and two (2) concussions the prior year, inherited a 1st time NFL head coach and 1st time offensive coordinator, and still set the franchise record for passing TD's??

                Dude, if I had receivers like that, I could set the franchise record too.

                Once again, like all the other FFL geeks who has mistaken glorified stats for actual analysis - you completely miss the boat.

                Where's your analysis? All I've seen is OMG WE WON THE SUPER BOWL REMEMBER?!?!!??!

                You say that Brees threw for 1,200 more yards than Ben, but then point out that Ben had the #1 rusher in the league.

                Yes I did, hooray for reading.

                Gee, I wonder why Ben needed to throw less??

                Gee, I wonder how this helps your argument?

                If you're going to quote stats, how about quoting stats that actually matter?

                There isn't a stat for how awesome the QB's running game was.

                Brees had a 1.6 to 1 TD to INT ratio. Big Ben had nearly 3 to 1. That's not slightly better, that's light years better.

                BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE TO THROW AS MUCH AS BREES.

                WOW. It's not even close.

                Big Ben in a landslide.

                I'm still looking for signs of intelligent life in this debate.
                All you did was talk about how deep into the playoffs he took the Steelers. Brees took the team that had the #2 pick in the draft to the NFC Championship.
                Last edited by Eagles4Life; 07-11-2008, 05:24 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Here, let me fix this for you:

                  Originally posted by DraftKidWonder View Post
                  You're a little high on your Steeler horse huh? Yes, with good reason.

                  Vince Young made the playoffs with Roydell Williams, Brandon Jones, Justin Gage, Patrick Turner, a 7 year old kid, and Elmo. Big Ben had Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes.

                  Vince Young is a glorified running back at this level, that is all. He has negative TD to INT ratings in both of his starting years (12:13 and 9 to 17! wow!!). His career best passer rating is 71.1 and his career completion percentage is 57.1%.

                  Now, if he continues to improve, hopefully those numbers will become more respectable.

                  But, just like the Drew Brees fan, you don't get affirmative action points for having a s##ty team.


                  You have no clue what you are talking about do you? Yes I stole it off of ESPN (sarcasm) like I steal everything off of ESPN (sarcasm) because idk what the hell I'm talking about (sarcasm). You're dead on the money.

                  What's bad about being a game manager? And 3,100 yards isn't all that much in days of 4,000 yard per year passer.

                  You have absolutely no idea what the term game manager means. It doesn't mean someone who fails to chuck the rock for 4,000+ yards a season...it means someone who is asked NOT TO LOSE THE GAME.

                  A true game manager is never asked to win the game for his team, and yet Big Ben has repeatedly done this for his team...good defense and all.

                  Ben hasn't been a game manager in any way, shape or form since his first season.


                  And Ben won the Super Bowl because he was a GAME MANAGER! Their defense was beast and they had a 1-2 combo of WP and the Bus. The receivers told him to throw it their way. Hell, Randle El threw a TD pass. I say he's a top 3 QB.

                  See here's where your logic completely breaks down.

                  Teams don't magically appear in the Super Bowl. They actually have to win enough in the regular season to appear in the playoffs, and then they have to win every game in the playoffs.

                  Tell the truth: Did you even watch any games Ben played in the year we won the ring?

                  Or did you just tune in for the SuperBowl, like half the free world, and listen to ESPN say Ben had a crappy game in the SB, therefore he must be a game manager.

                  Go back and watch tapes of our playoff games that year. Watch us vs. the Indy Colts (the best team in the league that year). Or us vs. the Broncos. All on the road. Big Ben played a tremendous part in winning each of those games, with scrambling, decision-making as well as passing.

                  The fact that we had a great defense and a decent running game that year doesn't negate the fact that Ben took those games over when he needed to.

                  Hell, Kordell Stewart had a far better running attack (the Bus in his prime) and a solid defense. Neil O'Donnell had a defense that was light years better than anything Big Ben has played with. How many rings did they win? Zero.

                  Big Ben was the magic pill that ended our 26 year title drought. And he did it with a team that won't even go down as Top 10 in Steelers history.


                  And cut out all of that stuff about Palmer and Romo. The past two D's Romo played against? Seahawks and Giants. Palmer would make it to the Playoffs if he had a DEFENSE.

                  Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If they were elite QB's they would have won those games. Kinda the way Big Ben has done throughout his career.

                  Good job Troj, way to dish it out.

                  Thanks, WonderKid. I appreciate the compliment.
                  sigpic

                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Ray Lewis has suffered enough, Commissioner Paul Tagliabue of the National Football League said in a conference call yesterday in explaining why he did not suspend the All-Pro linebacker who pleaded guilty to obstructing justice in a murder case.

                  ''It's the courts who have the primary responsibility in this case,'' Tagliabue said. ''We're not a substitute for the courts.''

                  ''The offense was a misdemeanor; he had no problems before that and hadn't violated league policies,'' Tagliabue said of Lewis's guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstructing justice in a deal with Atlanta prosecutors, who dropped murder charges against the Ravens star.

                  - NYTimes, July 20, 2000

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    PuppyPuncher: Even God hates the Steelers.

                    TrojanSteelerBear: That must be why he "cursed" us with 5 Super Bowl rings and "blessed" your Ratbirds with only one. Oh, I forgot: You're the old Cleveland Browns. That means you get to add in all of the Browns' SB rings, which brings you to, oh...say, one."


                    sigpic

                    ------------------------------------------------
                    Ray Lewis has suffered enough, Commissioner Paul Tagliabue of the National Football League said in a conference call yesterday in explaining why he did not suspend the All-Pro linebacker who pleaded guilty to obstructing justice in a murder case.

                    ''It's the courts who have the primary responsibility in this case,'' Tagliabue said. ''We're not a substitute for the courts.''

                    ''The offense was a misdemeanor; he had no problems before that and hadn't violated league policies,'' Tagliabue said of Lewis's guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstructing justice in a deal with Atlanta prosecutors, who dropped murder charges against the Ravens star.

                    - NYTimes, July 20, 2000

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TrojanSteelerBear View Post
                      Here, let me fix this for you:
                      Wow you have a lot of time on your hands to do all of that.

                      Do you watch games VY plays in? I do. He plays great. He reads the field, makes great passes, and puts it on the money but their receivers suck so bad it's no wonder his numbers suck.

                      Ben is a good quarterback and yes I've seen games he's played in. He was good, he's an NFL quarterback. He's supposed to be good, he was drafted 11th overall. What am I supposed to do, praise god that he made a quarterback that's halfway decent? You make him sound like Peyton or Tom. He's not, he's just Ben.

                      Man you've got me pegged, I copy stuff off of ESPN. Very creative. Are you serious? That's funny, again, you sound stupid.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DraftKidWonder View Post
                        Do you watch games VY plays in? I do. He plays great. He reads the field, makes great passes, and puts it on the money but their receivers suck so bad it's no wonder his numbers suck.
                        You can't possibly watch V10 play if you classify his play as "great." He is inaccurate has a fairly weak arm and looks to run every chance he gets. He is not half the passer Michael Vick is and they play somewhat similar styles. Jeff Fischer and his running game and defense got that team to the playoffs, not Vince Young.
                        Last edited by Ryan Leaf; 07-11-2008, 11:06 PM.
                        "I'm looking forward to a 15-year career, a couple of trips to the Super Bowl and a parade through downtown San Diego.''
                        -Ryan Leaf after 1998 NFL Draft

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DraftKidWonder View Post
                          Wow you have a lot of time on your hands to do all of that.

                          Do you watch games VY plays in? I do. He plays great. He reads the field, makes great passes, and puts it on the money but their receivers suck so bad it's no wonder his numbers suck.

                          Ben is a good quarterback and yes I've seen games he's played in. He was good, he's an NFL quarterback. He's supposed to be good, he was drafted 11th overall. What am I supposed to do, praise god that he made a quarterback that's halfway decent? You make him sound like Peyton or Tom. He's not, he's just Ben.

                          Man you've got me pegged, I copy stuff off of ESPN. Very creative. Are you serious? That's funny, again, you sound stupid.
                          Did you just call Vince Young's play great? I like him to and eventually see him being a good QB but he is not great...yet

                          You say VY is great but say Tarvaris sucks? They had very similar years.

                          That is what I call bias.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by IlliniVikeFan23 View Post
                            Did you just call Vince Young's play great? I like him to and eventually see him being a good QB but he is not great...yet

                            You say VY is great but say Tarvaris sucks? They had very similar years.

                            That is what I call bias.
                            Calling his play great wasn't the best wording lol.

                            And I've never said Jackson sucks. You just think that because everybody else does.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DraftKidWonder View Post
                              Calling his play great wasn't the best wording lol.

                              And I've never said Jackson sucks. You just think that because everybody else does.
                              Oh, my bad, I keep thinking you are one of those fools that are saying he sucks after one year of starting.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                IVF, there is a big difference between VY and Jackson.

                                Anyway, shut the hell up about Brees and Big Ben lol, Carson Palmer is the best under 30. I feel bad for him, such a great talent wasted under a horrible front office.

                                Comment

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